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Inside Mysterious 'Dark Pools'

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Broadway
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Platinum
Re: Size DOES matter!
Broadway   4/14/2011 9:20:51 PM
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I look forward to more agreeing/butting heads in the future, street smart!

Great analogy between regulators and teachers. It's hard to pay regulators well in a time and country where "big government" is demonized.

Politics aside ... one recent story I know about investors rebelling against opacity: it happened a couple years back, albveit in the small, exotic catastrophe bond market. Before the meltdown, investors weren't allowed to know before investing in a bond what made up its collateral. Why worry ... strong firms like Lehman Brothers were backing up the collateral. Well, when Lehman went down, a handful of bonds nearly imploded and the market froze (like everything else). To the credit of everyone involved in cat bonds, they quickly realized that investors wanted and needed transparency with the collateral arrangements, the market turned around quicker than most any other asset class ... and the market's been happily ever after since. Just had a record issuance in the first quarter.

Street Smart
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Platinum
Re: Size DOES matter!
Street Smart   4/14/2011 2:36:10 PM
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Hey Broadway...LOL, P.A.!  Considering we argue so much we really are in total agreement.  I think when the investors rebel against opacity is when heads will roll and things will change.  Wish I had more faith that regulators weren't always playing catch up but I just do not.

Right now, regulators are like teachers.  We SAY we value them, but we really don't pay them or give them the resources they really need to do their jobs properly.

That has to change if the playing field is ever really going to level.

Broadway
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Platinum
Re: Size DOES matter!
Broadway   4/14/2011 2:08:07 PM
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@street smart, I prefer the initials "P.A." And you're right, an open free market as simply defined is one where government keeps out and buyers and sellers agree on prices. That's it. As far as transparency is concerned, if everyone involved in the market is ok with opacity, then so be it. Nasty things tend to go bump in the dark though... And eventually the bumps turn into explosions. Eventually, if it's not regulators throwing up red flags over opacity, it'll be the investors themselves.

Street Smart
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Platinum
Re: Size DOES matter!
Street Smart   4/13/2011 10:28:43 AM
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Dear Broadway...do you prefer to be called Polly or Anna?  Rather than being snide, let me be perfectly, blindingly clear that I think transparency should be the desired goal of our financial markets as well.  I DO NOT agree with you on two counts though, one theoretical and one practical.

First, the theoretical.  A market does not have to be transparent to be "free."  In fact, the very concept of a laissez-faire (literally "leave it alone") market would suggest the opposite--a total lack of legal or regulatory intervention.

Second, the practical.  You say "regulation will eventually catch up enough to prosecute the next scandal."  By definition there is a gap there--scandal happened in the past, regulations regulate past behavior, markets on to next thing in present and future.  It's like trying to hit a moving target and good luck with that.  And never mind the embarrasment of the "hide in plain sight" obvious things like the Madoff scandal that regulation has pathetically missed!

But that isn't even the point of the dark pools or my original post.  The point I originally made is that aligning oneself with a broker of firm that prides itself on its perfectly legal trading prowess is a good idea.  Of course, there's a spectrum of importance here.  This matters less if you are a buy and hold investor and matters enormously if you are a day trader.

But I promise you that even Warren Buffet is working EVERY ANGLE to make sure he is getting the best possible price on every trade he makes by working with the best firms and the best brokers through legal means.  Why do you think he bought a stake in Goldman Sachs for heaven's sake???

And there is NOTHING about such trading savvy that that will ever be made transparent through regulation any more than any good business person will ever share his or her proprietary business secrets.

So, Broadway, you can come to the party or stay home but don't call the cops just because you've decided you don't like the music they're playing next door.  

Value Hiker
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Platinum
Re: Investment is simple, right?
Value Hiker   4/11/2011 11:39:27 PM
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Scott:

I did not expect there will be a "flash crash" and believe nobody can predict event like this. It was just pure luck.  In the meantime, I had friends who lost his shirt by setting sell limit order to protect his portfolio.

Even without the flash crash, you can catch some good opportunity from time to time. Like I bought  GE where it first hit the $13 and BRK-B at $2500. 

Recently I read a book and found actually Sir John Templeton used the similar approach to manage his trading.

In retrospect, this strategy is not bullet proof. You may miss opportunity like GE at $8 and BRK-B at $2000. Furthermore, if the company deserves a sharp fall due to serious incident like BP oil leak in the Gulf, you may get stuck in a position for a long time.

-John

icebreaker1975
User Rank
Silver
Re: Investment is simple, right?
icebreaker1975   4/11/2011 9:59:44 AM
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Its very interesting that "Dark Pools" are becoming the more and more utlized in the market, as basic human instinct wants to "see" and be exposed to whats going on with the books.  But not here, this is a shot int he dark that is truly a risk. 

"If you are an active trader, you want to work with a broker that participates in dark pools."   I guess that I will try this mehtod out just to see how things pan out.

Scott Raynovich
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Investment is simple, right?
Scott Raynovich   4/10/2011 9:55:17 PM
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Value Hiker,

That is amazing that you did that (if true). You are absolutely correct to think that way. You are taking advantage of extreme events which can actually be beneficial.

Ever since the Flash Crash I have a standing limit order to buy Proctor & Gamble (PG) at 32, though unfortunately my bid has not been hit since and I'm skeptical that opportunity will come again. Next time it will probably not be PG, it will be other stocks, so maybe a system can be built to insert dozens of well-below market value limit orders in for very respectable stocks. I'm sure there are probaly lots of quants that specialize in this.

--Scott

Value Hiker
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Platinum
Investment is simple, right?
Value Hiker   4/10/2011 7:47:07 PM
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I am not a trader, but an old fashion value investor. I read the annual report, study the business, and talked to the competitors. Finally I calculate the price I want with a big margin of safety and set a limit order online and go to sleep.

What happened during the "flash crash", all my limit orders were executed. It looked like a gift from Wall Street. I was lucky that I only have several limit orders, otherwise I would have trouble to raise cash to pay the brokers. 

There are many explanation of "flash crash". The Dark Pool is an interesting one and sound interesting.

Broadway
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Size DOES matter!
Broadway   4/10/2011 1:46:24 PM
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@Street Smart, I guess then the solution if you cannot "find a broker who cares about the "dark trading arts" and work with him or her on a sustained basis" is to get out of the markets?

I agree with @Ashish in that transparency should always be the desired goal of a true free market. Without it, you have no free market. Technology may be outpacing regulation, but regulation will eventually catch up enough to prosecute the next scandal. 

Street Smart
User Rank
Platinum
Size DOES matter!
Street Smart   4/8/2011 3:36:26 PM
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I think we're dealing with two concepts here that are being lumped together under the general heading of dark pools.  First, the concept of block trading, or large blocks of stock trading at different prices from the rest of the market has existed for decades--certainly long before the NYSE went electronic.  Traders at the big firms have always "crossed" their blocks of stock, usually at the very beginning of the day if they wanted to make a statement to the trading community and right at the close if they didn't.  

This is different from the ability to place a stop-loss order which automatically triggers the sale of a stock when it reaches a certain price.  Now, with electronic trading, that ability has become more sophisticated, so that the parameters can be manipulated to include percentate declines of base values, etc.

BUT REMEMBER...to paraphrase the old saying, bulls make money, bears make money, but ostriches who put their heads in the sand and don't constantly babysit the orders they place WILL NEVER make money!  When trading, the race is to the investor who stays on top of his or her broker constantly and has a broker who enjoys staying on top of the trading action.  No firm, no matter what they say, is going to let the little guy even close to its program trading action, but if it's a firm that treasures its trading mojo, the little guy may get close enough to the action to draft off the breeze and reap a little reflected benefit.

Also, remember that what can be saved on getting a great trade can be many times greater than nickel and diming a broker over pennies on a commission.  Again, find a broker who cares about the "dark trading arts" and work with him or her on a sustained basis.

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