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MF Global Accounts Moved, Minus Much of the Cash

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Scott Raynovich
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Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
Scott Raynovich   11/10/2011 3:23:50 PM
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>As it is said,  everything can be an excellent investment at CERTAIN price range, >or a lousy investment at another price range.

Good point. Actually I think the biggest risk to gold is political. It keeps going up because Bernanke is in charge and they keep printing money. But if there were every some kind of political movement afoot to remove Bernanke, or some kind of Austrian Ron Paul-like person were elected president, gold would get crushed.

If Bernanke resigned tomorrow I bet gold would be down $400.


Value Hiker
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Platinum
Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
Value Hiker   11/10/2011 2:54:50 PM
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Scott,

I fully agree that Gold is a excellent hedge against currency devaluation or hyperinflation. But I think I am too late for the game. As it is said,  everything can be an excellent investment at CERTAIN price range, or a lousy investment at another price range. I am too ignorant to find the correct price range for Gold investing, but your report definely improve my understanding on how to evaluate gold price. 

 

 

 

 

Value Hiker
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Platinum
Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
Value Hiker   11/10/2011 2:46:14 PM
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@Anish, Thanks for the advice to hold Gold. My principle is that I don't own anything that I can not figure out its intrinsic value, no matter it is Gold, bond, or Equity. If I step away from this principle, I know I am speculating.

There are some stocks that can hedge the fiat money as good as gold, like good consumer staples companies: KO, PG, JNJ, YUM, & MCD.  Even the SPY is flat during the past decade, these stocks doubled or even tripled if you reinvest your dividend in a tax-deferred account. Of course I admit that their returns is nothing close to the Gold's superior 600% return. But they are fairly valued even at today's price. 

Warren Buffett is older than most of us. If he has not gone through a fiat money Crisis, we haven't either. How can we be so sure that Warren is worse than us? I won't bet on that.

back2basicz
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Platinum
Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
back2basicz   11/10/2011 1:19:29 PM
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Value,

To and everyone his own investment system.

If nothing else you should own Gold Stocks to prepare for the eventuality of a Fiat Currency crisis.

In that event most stocks will get badly hammered(primarily because the underlying currency in which they are denominated gets hammered).

Thats why you why you want to own Gold its Money and Insurance-Plain and simple.

The thing is Warren Buffet has never been through a Fiat Money crisis so his advice on this issue is irrelevant.For that you need to read the History books/Milton Friedman.

Regards

Ashish.

Scott Raynovich
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Blogger
Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
Scott Raynovich   11/9/2011 11:35:39 PM
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Value,

Good response. I hold a fairly large portion of my net worth in gold mostly as a hedge against currency devaluation and general mayhem. It is the best hedge against the growing trend of wanton, mad-money printing. In that role, its performance has been stellar -- up an average of over 15% for the last 10 years -- beating every single asset class. My only regret is that I did not buy more of it.

 As the report shows, the best way to monitor whether gold will "continue to go up" is by monitoring the M1 money supply, which has a 80% correlation with gold. The recent trend is that they have been accelerating the expansion of M1, rather than slowing it, which leads me to believe that the climb in gold will decelerate, not accelerate.

As for your point on the data, well, it's a bit of a paradox. The reason we did not have any data before 1971 was because the gold standard meant that CURRENCIES WERE LOCKED TO GOLD. That means they couldn't print money pell-mell, so by definition, gold was always the same as the currency -- it did not fluctuate. I think that's exactly why gold has exploded since 1971 -- once the gold standard was removed it relieved politicians of any monetary discipline or responsibility whatsoever.

So, I guess it's a philisophical thing. Do you believe that money supply and irresponsible monetary practices exist now because there is no gold standard -- or is gold just rising in some sort of manic bubble? I actually believe it's rising because the market realizes now that without any kind of gold standard, during a banking crisis, politicians will just print money to infinity...

So, in the end, to me, it is a great insurance policy especially in this environment. And unlike many stocks (or an MF Global account), I know definitively that it cannot go to zero. Therefore it's value as an "asset hedge" to me is very high.

--Scott

impactnow
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Iron
MF global
impactnow   11/9/2011 10:57:15 PM
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Scott—sadly it does answer my question, with a resounding nothing is going to happen any time soon….sorry you are in the middle of this.

Value Hiker
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Platinum
Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
Value Hiker   11/9/2011 8:00:15 PM
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Scott:

I did read your Gold report, and I shall say it is a wonderful report. I especially like the "How to value Gold part". But I have some concerns about your valuation model:

1. As you pointed out in the report, US left Gold Standard in 1971. The data you provided in the report has less than 40 year tracking record. I am uncomfortable to reach conclusion based on data of such a short time frame. During housing bubble, real estate expert pointed out that house price will always go up in 10 years for major US metropolitan areas. The conclusion is based on the housing data of the past 60 years, but we know how accurate it is in the rear mirror. 

2. Based on your data, the current gold price around $1800 is in the low to middle range, then you concluded that it will reach the high end based on historical data.  You assume the bull market will reach the high end before going down, which I am not sure.

3. If you asked me whether there are sign of irrational activities, my answer is yes. I do notice the "we pay cash for gold" post on the telephone Poles, like we saw the "we pay cash for house" post during housing bubble. One Wolf Camera Store in my neighbourhood was converted to a "We Buy Gold" store.

 

I believe Mr. Buffet's view has been discredited by the market. Do you really think he doesn't regret not putting some gold away at $500 an ounce? ;-)

At this year Berkshire meeting Q&A session, one shareholder told Mr. Buffett, that her Gold Portfolio is performing far better than BRK stock, Mr. Buffett joked that he should hire her to manage BRK portfolio. :)

 

Finally, if gold is so useless, if I handed you ten Krugerrands, would you throw them in the trash?

You misunderstood my point: I said that I will toss the idea of investing in gold, not the gold itself. I will be more than glad to grab all the Krugerrands you handed to me. Similar to all alternative investments, the gems, collectible artwork, antiques, they all have certain value, but it is too hard for a layman like me to evaluate them, so I just pass the opportunity over. It does NOT mean these investments are bad choices - Just I am too chick-hearted to jump in. :)



Scott Raynovich
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Blogger
Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
Scott Raynovich   11/9/2011 5:55:40 PM
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Value,

I think it's becoming clear that the markets see gold as having intrinsic value, as it is currently becoming the ultimate form of collateral and reverting to its historic use as a global currency.

And don't you think it's an important statement on the gold market that Germany said that it would not allow its gold reserves to be used as EFSF collateral?

And did you notice that the CME recently started to accept gold is collateral? Hmm, why is that? Maybe it's even better than Treasury Bonds?

Historically, as I show in my report, you can definitely value gold in relation to the money supply. There are reasonable historical correlations.

Please read my Gold report, for which I did a lot of resources:

http://www.investoruprising.com/document.asp?doc_id=232695

I believe Mr. Buffet's view has been discredited by the market. Do you really think he doesn't regret not putting some gold away at $500 an ounce? ;-)

Finally, if gold is so useless, if I handed you ten Krugerrands, would you throw them in the trash?

--Scott

 

 

Value Hiker
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Platinum
Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
Value Hiker   11/9/2011 5:24:34 PM
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Anish

As a value investors, I don't care World Central Bank, Federal Reserve, or anybody else are doning with Gold, I just can NOT evaluate the intrinsic value of one ounce of this shine metal. That is enough for me to toss the Gold into my "Too hard to analyze" basket. :)

back2basicz
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Platinum
Re: JP Morgan Legal Motion
back2basicz   11/9/2011 4:13:30 PM
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value,

Question you should ask yourself is primarily this-Why are the institutions behind our money(Worlds Central Banks) buying so much Gold for last two years(in addition to what they already hold)???

Obviously Gold holds some value as a medium of exchange for Goods and Services -Basically as an alternative Money.

Regards

Ashish.

 

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