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Debt Debate Could Come Back to Haunt Markets

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PredictableChaos
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Deficit is now 9% of GDP
PredictableChaos   4/16/2012 5:26:16 PM
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things don't appear to be improving rapidly

@Scott, you are the master of understatement - no, things do NOT appear to be improving at all.  Part of the problem is that most people glaze over when we're talking about hundreds of billions and trillions of dollars.

I like the way that Lenore charactorized this in her recent post about how today's economy is not like 1998 - for one thing the currrent federal deficit is 9% of our total GDP.  9% !@@!

 
  1998 2012
Federal government spending Relatively controlled with a surplus of 0.7% of GDP The highest percentage of GDP in history outside of a world war with a projected budget deficit nearing 9% of GDP

It's no wonder we're on a path that may hit the new deficit ceiling around the end of the year - 9% of GDP is eye-popping huge.

PC

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Deficit is now 9% of GDP
Scott Raynovich   4/16/2012 9:50:10 PM
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It's amazing that with what's going on in Europe, people continue to ignore the effect of large amounts of public debt!

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Deficit is now 9% of GDP
Noreen Seebacher   4/17/2012 8:17:35 AM
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New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, you may have heard, blames the deficit on the fact politicians just want to be loved.

In a speech last week at the George W. Bush Institute Conference on Taxes and Economic Growth in Manhattan, he noted, "I think politicians get themselves into the biggest trouble when they care more about being loved than being respected

 "That's why we run up these deficits we run up. That's why we can't say no to anything, because we care too much about being loved."

So basically,  politicians show their love for the voters by running huge deficits and the voters return the love by voting for them. Christie warns the result has been nbsp;a "paternalistic entitlement society" with "a bunch of people sitting on a couch, waiting for their next government check" -- something he expects "will not just bankrupt us financially, it will bankrupt us morally..."

Noreen Seebacher
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Growing deficits
Noreen Seebacher   4/17/2012 8:37:18 AM
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One of the many reasons for the fast growing national debt, analysts concur, is the growing social welfare state in America.

Economist Ed Yardeni recently noted:
  • From 1993 through 2010, outlays per beneficiary for Social Security and Medicare more than doubled from $10,459 to $22,319. Over this same period, total wages and salaries in compensation and nominal GDP did about the same. Because Americans are living longer, the number of Social Security beneficiaries rose 88% over this period, and will increase at a faster rate as the Baby Boomers now start to retire.
  • The number of people claiming disability has soared. It rose to a record 8.7 million during March, doubling since February 1997. Over this period, their numbers have increased by 4.3 million. This helps to explain some of the drop in the labor force participation rate, which fell from 66.9% to 63.8% over this period


Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Growing deficits
Noreen Seebacher   4/17/2012 9:04:08 AM
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Interested in comparing federal revenues and outlays? Well, here is your chance...
Receipts 2012 YTD 2011 YTD
Individual Income Taxes  484,143 475,598
Corporation Income Taxes. 84,537 55,081
Social Insurance and Retirement Receipts:    
Employment and General Retirement . 372,358 371,388
Unemployment Insurance . 20,062 16,053
Other Retirement ... 1,884 2,016
Excise Taxes . 34,779 33,032
Estate and Gift Taxes . 6,157 175
Customs Duties  14,564 14,119
Miscellaneous Receipts .. 45,901 52,434
Total  1,064,384 1,019,896
Net Outlays
National Defense  350,245 357,498
International Affairs. 24,272 20,308
General Science, Space, and Technology ... 13,841 14,476
Energy ... 7,219 6,608
Natural Resources and Environment ... 19,579 22,489
Agriculture .. 15,760 17,266
Commerce and Housing Credit 36,274 -194
Transportation  44,159 44,251
Community and Regional Development... 14,914 11,518
Education, Training, Employment and Social Services . 54,446 72,609
Health  170,509 194,309
Medicare 232,854 226,667
Income Security .. 310,213 336,110
Social Security  378,100 359,716
Veterans Benefits and Services ... 64,832 60,827
Administration of Justice  28,190 28,659
General Government . 11,317 10,282
Net Interest . 121,712 116,341
Undistributed Offsetting Receipts . -55,066 -50,424
Total  1,843,372 1,849,315


tokyogai
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Re: Growing deficits
tokyogai   4/17/2012 9:18:44 AM
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These numbers would seem to argue that we have leveled off and are maybe showing a very small improvement. I think we need to do something more drastic to make a real dent in the debt.

PredictableChaos
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Re: Growing deficits
PredictableChaos   4/17/2012 9:38:07 AM
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US Gov. Receipts - $1 Trillion

US Gov. Outlays - $1.8 Trillion

Overall US taxes would need to increase 80% on average to close the deficit.  This is an incredibly large - and totally unworkable - amount.

@Noreen quoted Governor Chris Christie "it will bankrupt us morally.." And I agree.  It's easier to be honest if the pot-of-gold that government is giving (or taking) is small.

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Growing deficits
Scott Raynovich   4/17/2012 11:12:12 AM
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@Noreen,

You made some great points there. Everybody makes the budget problem out to be the economy and Repubs vs. Dems, but it's more complicated than that. We are dealing with large demographic shifts, with lots of baby-boomers retiring and less workers to support them. That means the budget will get increasingly difficult to balance regardless of the economy or tax policy. The bottom line is that our population is aging, living longer, and becoming more expensive to support.

 

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Growing deficits
Scott Raynovich   4/17/2012 11:18:41 AM
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When I see that National Defense expenses are almost as high as the total receipts from income taxes, something is wrong with this picture.

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Growing deficits
Noreen Seebacher   4/17/2012 2:10:18 PM
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I realized a lot more people were going on disability as an option to unemployment, but I was still surprised to read the actual numbers.

It comes down to a survival strategy, don't you think? No job, no prospects, a little too old to start a new career, too young to retire...so build a case for a disability. But that loss of experienced workers is nonetheless depressing -- and it is depressing to think of those people sitting on their couches because they couldn't get jobs.

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