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Rally Needs Dow Theory Support

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Street Smart
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Street Smart   3/21/2012 10:42:12 AM
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Just bought the Elder book.  The reviews were "off the charts" good!  Can't wait to read it...thanks @Fred.

Fred Goodman
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Fred Goodman   3/21/2012 12:28:52 AM
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I have only used the Donchian technique with the S&P 500 and found it helpful, though of course there is no single answer.

Don't miss the Alexander Elder book "Come Into My Trading Room," It was one of the best.

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Scott Raynovich   3/20/2012 10:36:14 PM
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Love the book recs Fred. I am basically a trend follower so I'll have to check them out."Market Wizards" is one of my favorite trading books of all time.

Interestingly Seykota said the "Donchian Crossover" system worked well with futures, commodities, and indices but worked poorly with individual stocks, for whatever reason.

Street Smart
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Street Smart   3/20/2012 5:14:59 PM
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These are the best recommendations, @Scott and @Fred!  We are the beneficiaries of your both sharing your accrued knowledge--and war stories.  Thanks!  I'm going to check everything out.

Fred Goodman
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Fred Goodman   3/20/2012 4:47:54 PM
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Google "Donchian" to get the arithmetic behind the Donchian bands, a very nice device for trend following systems.

A very fine book on the subject, and one that tells stories about Ed Seykota is Kedrick Brown's 2006 book, "Trend Trading." I found it to be well written and learned a lot from it. It is also available at Amazon.

I have a number of books to recommend and have listed them here with brief reviews. Two on this subject and very well presented are "Way of the Turtle," and "Trading in the Zone."

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Scott Raynovich   3/20/2012 4:30:12 PM
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More on Ed Seykota from the seminal book "Market Wizards."

"Ed Seykota turned $5,000 into $15,000,000 over a 12 year time period in his model account - an actual client account. Ed is self-taught, but influenced early on in his career by Richard Donchian. He is a commodities and futures trader and a Trend Follower."

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Scott Raynovich   3/20/2012 4:26:43 PM
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Fred,

As somebody who traded for my own account for years, I understand and totally agree. As I stated the market will beat you up if you let it get to your emotions. It is very hard. You almost have to figure out how to turn off your brain and let the computer take control -- and admit that's your fate.

There is nothing more anxious and nerve-wracking than staring at a red screen and watching your investments plummet as they did in 2008/2009.

I will have to check out that book, what a hilarious title!

Another guru of mine is Ed Seykota who follows simple trend-following systems and allegedly made clients 5,000% returns or more over decades. He lives on an estate on the shores of Lake Tahoe and now runs a trading organization called TradingTribe.com. He claims to largely follow his computer system and only spends about "a few minutes" every morning entering or exiting trades.

Seykota has always said that trading is more about your mind than it is about the market. People bring their own fears, conflicts, and baggage to the market and that's how it can get the best of you. I believe this is a universal phenomenon.

 

 

 

Fred Goodman
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Fred Goodman   3/20/2012 4:12:15 PM
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I have had some experience with averaging Scott, and as a matter of fact, in my market newsletter in the 70's I presented a mock portfolio based on Robert Lichello's clever system disclosed in his poorly named book, "How To Make $1,000,000 in the Stock Market Automatically!"

The book is still available for under $5 at Amazon and makes use of a system of varying the investment according to the stock movements, it is very effective if stuck to. But there's the rub. It takes nerves of steel to buy during a "flash crash," and I for one don't have nerves of steel.

Using any system on autopilot is not my cup of tea. However, if it is modified according to the needs of the investor as he/she approaches retirement I'm all for it.

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Scott Raynovich   3/20/2012 3:51:16 PM
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@Fred,

Obviously, also, to your point if you are close to retirement or in retirement that changes the picture entirely and you probably want a much lower exposure to stocks.

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery...
Scott Raynovich   3/20/2012 3:48:20 PM
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Actually, I can understand that the market post-2000 can give people ulcers but I believe the major indices have made the markets look much worse than they actually are.

The indices are the problem. If you dollar-cost averaged over 2000-2010 and put the money into reasonably price, growing companies you would have been fine!

What do I mean by that? Well, let's say you seek out a stock selection formula such as the one I advocate (low-PEG stocks such as those we picked for the IU25 index which is now beating the market). But sticking to low-P/E or low PEG, you are reducing your risk.

Now, our IU25 does not have a long enough track record (one year). But there is one completely transparent system like this with a similiar methodology, which I was in fact influenced by. It's Joel Greenblatt's "Magic Formula." Here are the results:

Magic Formula performance vs. S&P 500 Index, 1999-2011* (Click to enlarge)



 

As you can see, if you were in the Magic Formula stocks over the long-haul 2000-2010, you would have done fine. 17% annualized in fact! 2008 would have been a sweat, but if you'd added a few stocks instead of panicking then you would have done even better.

So why do I think this is better than going by Indices? The Magic Formual focuses on growth and fair valuation. The large indices COMPLETELY IGNORE VALUATION.

In fact, the S&P 500 is engineered to add companies at exactly the wrong time -- they are favored when their market caps get really big (regardless of valuation), regardless of P/E, and they end up being added to the index during "bubbly times." This is why in 1999, the S&P 500 became overweight technology at exacly the wrong time, and why in 2007 it became overweight financials at exactly the wrong time!

Why is this so? Well, for whatever reason, the S&P likes to add companies just after their market caps have grown extraordinarily large. And it does the same things with sectors -- when they become huge and outsized, they make the indice overweight that sector. This is like if you were in the market for a house but you waited to buy because "you want to see prices go up more before you buy."

So the answer is to manage your own risk and avoid market-cap indices that arbitrarily add stocks without regard to the "fairness" of their valuation.

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