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The Odd Couple: John Paulson & Hartford

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Broadway
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What's the crisis?
Broadway   4/9/2012 3:28:22 PM
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Does the Hartford have some real flaw on it's books, or is this just a crisis created by their lead investor---simply to make the insurer's operations easier to understand for the Street?

Scott Raynovich
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Paulson's rough 2 years
Scott Raynovich   4/9/2012 4:56:38 PM
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Paulson definitely hasn't  been impressive recently. In fact he hasn't done much of anything -- and he had a terrible 2011. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds, but is this even a big enough deal to staunch the bleeding in Paulson's funds?

PredictableChaos
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Note to Paulson
PredictableChaos   4/9/2012 6:13:58 PM
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Paulson says the whole thing has gotten too complex for Wall Street analysts to understand

It's a 100+ year old company with two parts. One doing well and one not so well. They've had these same two parts for ages.  Competitors have these same two parts because there is some opportuntity for cross-selling.

No, this isn't "too complex" for analysts to understand.

PC

Ed Leefeldt
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Re: Note to Paulson
Ed Leefeldt   4/10/2012 7:54:05 AM
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Amen to your post. As I implied, this is just Wall Street's way to make money for itself, and disrupt a 100-year-old company.

Scott Raynovich
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Re: Note to Paulson
Scott Raynovich   4/10/2012 9:16:28 AM
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@Ed

I don't know enough about the situation but maybe there is more to it than that? In one of Joel Greenblatt's classic investment books, "You Can Be a Stock Market Genius," he talks about how much value can be added via company breakups and spinoffs. This may be what Paulson is after here.

Do you think there might be any value to a breakup at all? Often when you break up companies into parts that make more logical sense, you structure them for more growth and unlock value.

 

--Scott

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Note to Paulson
Noreen Seebacher   4/10/2012 9:23:01 AM
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@Scott, I know that's the theory. But we've seen a lot of breakups in the past year, especially among energy companies (ie Marathon) And I'm starting to wonder if the underlying motivation has less to do with value than limiting liability.

Say an oil and gas company has a catastrophic accident. Are they just being prudent to separate their upstream and downstream operations -- to protect the assets in the event of lawsuits?

Ed Leefeldt
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Re: Note to Paulson
Ed Leefeldt   4/10/2012 9:33:43 AM
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I knew previous leadership quite well (Ramani Ayer) and he was a believer in cross-selling. Don't know McGee at all, other than that he was a Bank of America guy with no industry background who'd had both successes - and failures - in his previous jobs.

Regarding the merger/breakup controversy, opinions may be mixed, but the Wall Street Journal did a Pulitzer-Prize winning story on how they devastate the workforce. Hartford is getting rid of its brokerage unit. I know brokers. Do you think they are out there now trying to sell Hartford products, or segueing into a new job?

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Note to Paulson
Noreen Seebacher   4/10/2012 9:44:34 AM
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I'm guessing we should put this in the failure category.

At Bank of America, McGee oversaw an effort to boost credit-card lending after the 2006 acquisition of MBNA Corp. That responsibility was removed in 2008, when card oversight was handed to Bruce Hammonds. The bank now has the largest percentage of defaults among big U.S. credit-card lenders.

Dex
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Re: Note to Paulson
Dex   4/10/2012 10:04:38 AM
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You have to wonder about corporate boards. How a guy from BAC seems like a beat choice to take over a struggling company really leaves me wonder...

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Note to Paulson
Noreen Seebacher   4/10/2012 9:18:05 AM
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@Ed, what's your speculation on a possible change of leadership at the company? Are the issues being inflamed by what you describe as the current weakness at the top?

PredictableChaos
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Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
PredictableChaos   4/9/2012 6:28:31 PM
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Uhm, why is the property casualty side doing so well?

I just wrote a check for our car-insurance and I notice that it has more than doubled since we moved to Hartford.  Significantly more than doubled.

I know there are any number of reasons for this, some legitimate -
  • Added a 16 year old driver
  • Added a vehicle for a 16 year old driver
  • Multiple fender benders by teens (various ages)
  • Traffic tickets by parents
  • Not to be outdone - multiple traffic tickets by teens (various excuses)

I'll do some comparison shopping, but I was just wondering - is the property casualty side doing so well because of the checks I keep writing?

Noreen, maybe you can shed some light on this as I think you have some experience in this area.  Insurance, I mean.

PC

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
Noreen Seebacher   4/9/2012 7:18:55 PM
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Yes, I have experience in insurance...and even more experience in teen tickets and accidents!

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
Noreen Seebacher   4/9/2012 7:37:39 PM
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Seriously, car insurance takes some finesse. I've had State Farm, Progressive, Chubb, (that I can recall) before switching to Geico. (I sound like a commercial)

Depending on the make, model and age of the car, you can sometimes be better off putting the vehicle in the name of the teen driver -- and getting the kid his own policy completely. That was a good strategy when I forced my oldest to drive a 93 conversion van for her first full year of driving (the car was worth very little, so it didn't cost that much to insure and in NYS at the time, it worked out better with a separate policy.)

Later, I tried Chubb because I have a historic home and needed Chubb's overpriced home insurance (which I have since replaced with Ace) and added on the cars for an alleged discount. Chubb offers one advantage: You can base the insurance on an agreed value, so if your car is totalled, you will get that agreed amount. But I thought the customer service was mediocre at best when I had an accident.

Geico has actually been really good: cost effective and good customer service through multiple accidents. Just remember you have the right to go to the auto body shop of your choice (no matter what insurance company you have) and you can push for OEM parts (as opposed to aftermarket parts that just meet OEM standards).

So my bottom line: Shop your policy once a year to see if another company offers better rates, Give Geico a try --and since you are in Ohio, also price Erie, which operates in 11 states and the District of Columbia -- and be aggressive in 1) fighting tickets and 2) shifting liability to the other driver(s) when you have accidents.

I can give you lots of tips about those last two!!

PredictableChaos
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
PredictableChaos   4/10/2012 9:59:36 AM
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@Noreen

What a great idea!  I never thought of shifting the car and the teen to their own, separate policy.  With that, I'm sure I'll have some options that will save money. And it doesn't hurt that a stand-alone policy would help show certain teens the real cost of seemingly small mistakes.

BTW,  I'm in Texas, not Ohio. Maybe you're thinking of TelecomFreq?  Anyway, thanks.

PC

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
Noreen Seebacher   4/10/2012 10:09:07 AM
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Oh, sorry PC. I did mix up you two.

But that raises an even more interesting question. How are you getting speeding tickets in Texas? The last time I drove from Midland to Seminole, the speed limit was like 90 MPH! Even I had a hard time exceeding that.

PredictableChaos
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
PredictableChaos   4/10/2012 3:02:46 PM
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@Noreen,

Good question.  I guess we have some special skills. 

You know, there was a time when Montana didn't even have any speed limits on their highways. But you could still get a ticket - it was based on the subjective judgement of the police officer.  'Reckless' or 'too fast for conditions'.

It was a bit of a magnet for speed freaks.

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
Noreen Seebacher   4/10/2012 4:03:08 PM
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Well, I say drive a black sedan. That has reduced my teen ticket issue.

Urban legends website snopes.com claims there is no evidence to support the theory that some cars get more tickets than others and police and insurance companies deny any link between car color and  tickets. But I can tell you from experience that a red MINI and a red Mercedes coupe both get more attention and more tickets than a black Ford Focus.

cat tail
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
cat tail   4/10/2012 12:15:28 PM
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Wow. Excellent tips on car insurance. I think I just keep renewing because it seems the easiest thing to do.

Value Hiker
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
Value Hiker   4/10/2012 5:48:25 PM
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@Noreen, great tips about car insurance. As a shareholder of Berkshire, I shall consider switching my car insurance to Geico. The only problem is that Geico doesn't offer home insurance. I hate to manage separate accounts - Now you see while Hartford pushed so hard on cross-selling, it not only generates more revenue, but also locks the customers down.

 

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
Noreen Seebacher   4/10/2012 6:43:46 PM
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Value Hiker, You'll have to check the situation in your state. But in NYS, Geico . has partnered with Homesite Insurance Group to provide homeowners insurance products. You can buy it through the Geico site, and get a discount on your auto policy as a bonus.

I don't have it on my house, only because, as I mentioned earlier, my house was built in 1875 and I wanted specialty coverage that will enable me to rebuild to historic specs in the event of a loss (ie plaster walls, carved mantels, inlaid wood flooring, etc -- my house is worth more dead than alive) Anyway, I did buy renter's insurance on the apartment my daughter rented while she was in college, and that $120 a year policy was enough to qualified me for a discount on my auto discount.

Noreen Seebacher
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Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
Noreen Seebacher   4/10/2012 6:45:40 PM
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Also, Geico offers discounts for a host of alumi and other organizations, including Mensa -- which I bet anyone on this site is smart enough to qualify to become a member.

Drivewaygirl
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Platinum
Re: Paying too much for Hartford Insurance?
Drivewaygirl   4/10/2012 7:16:39 PM
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I'm sold. It's worth doing some comparison shopping. I don't know why I just renew without thinking much about it.

icebreaker1975
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Silver
I think we all have a little experience in insurance...
icebreaker1975   4/9/2012 11:39:21 PM
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just depends on what end we are on...agent or insured

driven
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Iron
Moving on
driven   4/10/2012 9:43:32 PM
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I just read USAA Investment Management hired Keith Sloane, former head of the Hartford mutual funds, as head of third-party distribution. It is a newly created role to help USAA expand its presence with advisers and third-party platforms, the company said in a release.

Tenacious
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Paulson
Tenacious   4/10/2012 10:08:37 PM
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So Paulson started buying Hartford shares in the third quarter of 2009 as investment declines and annuity slumps were pushing the company to its fifth consecutive net loss. Then in 2011 Paulson's Advantage Plus Fund loses 51 percent , and the firm blames financial services companies like Hartford.

Seems to me like Paulson made dumb bet on a quick recovery by Hartford, and when that failed, he paniked and tried to make it Hartford's problem.

tokyogai
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Re: Paulson
tokyogai   4/11/2012 12:47:25 PM
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I agree. it looks like he is looking for an excuse for his poor performance. maybe he means he can not understand their structure.



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